Intelligence vs Masculinity In my post ‘The Hunter-Gatherer Fitness Model’, I made the argument that smarter people are physically weaker and have more slender features. I only used one study to back it up, although here is another study that says “facial intelligence negatively affects perceived masculinity” in their research on the faces of leaders. As for the
Hey Windsor, I've just skim read your post, and I can already tell you've got some new insights for me! Looking forward to a slower read to digest all your points on intelligence and masculinity.
There are cultural elements in this. In the US, jocks don't geek because they specialize, focus on winning in one thing. In Germany, there is a lingering element of idealistic-humanistic philosophy that life of the mind, spirit Geist, is superior to the life of the body. That's Hegel. Everything is the Idea unfolding.
British culture is almost unique in that, that they realized intellectuals need sports. Boys boxed, Kate Middleton played hockey (very not princessly!), and Tolkien was a "fierce" rugby player. Yes, Tolkien. Totally would not expect that.
4) there is not much to do at home, but parents have books, there are interesting stuff on the internet, one might become an intellectual. but one might also become an avid World of Warcraft player, and while that might be called "nerdy" it is not actually intellectual. we don't know whether the nerdy guy on the pic is a physics expert or just really likes videogames.
I have a totally unfounded schizo hypothesis that differences in intelligence is partially caused by differences in connective tissue. More “nerdy” connective tissue promotes neuroplasticity and more “jock” connective tissue promotes athleticism.
Would maybe explain higher rates of myopia, lankiness, differences in physical coordination, and even facial shape.
We know that people with hypermobility are more likely to have higher levels of anxiety and depression, so it’s not totally outrageous to think that there is some connection between connective tissue and brain development.
However, I know jack shit about any of this. Just a funny thought.
You mean ehlers danlos syndrome? Thats more common in women and autism, explaining the anxiety and depression. But I suppose there might be a correlation with IQ and EDS too. Regardless, I think there has to be a negative correlation between athleticism and intelligence because they are both metabolically costly. You can be good at one or the other or average at both. Only neurodivergent people are good at both.
No, I just meant garden variety hypermobility. hEDS has a much stricter diagnostic criteria.
But I do recall reading some studies that found correlations between hypermobility and anxiety, depression, etc.
So my thought was that some other connective tissue mutations might be correlated with IQ, but not necessarily cause hypermobility. Rather, the hypermobility -> anxiety correlation just demonstrates that phenotype traits related to physical appearance and athleticism can have cognitive correlatives. So maybe some other connective tissue genes could cause both “nerdy” phenotype and high IQ.
The metabolic cost explanation is much more parsimonious, I think. Also, a pretty simple explanation for the inverse correlation between BMI and IQ — low adolescent BMI is correlated with higher adult IQs.
I wasnt aware of the BMI-IQ correlation. I agree its more parsimonious but absolutely there could be correlations with other physical traits. It could even just be added to the theory.
Hypermobility might reduce power, which reduces both athleticism and energy requirements. Or rather, power reduces mobility.
So yes I guess youre right there should be a correlation, but its also possible to be mobile and athletic/powerful.
I’m a little confused. You say the study suggests the correlation between perceived intelligence and facial width does not translate to a correlation between actual intelligence and facial width. Are you sure more gracile men aren’t just less likely to overestimate their intelligence?
Intelligence is correlated slightly with various un-nerdy qualities. Good looks, prosocial behavior, broad build, height, disease resistance, and facial attractiveness. This correlation doesn’t seem to fall off at high levels either. I have heard before that facial width actually correlated with intelligence in both genders in youth. Not sure if that’s true, but it does correlate with autism (which most would view as a “nerdy” personality).
The nerd/jock stereotype probably comes from these two sources:
A) People who are not intellectually motivated are more likely to pursue a sport, but are not necessarily more genetically gifted at said sport. Playing sports makes it more difficult to pursue academic excellence, even if it doesn’t correlate with a lack of cognitive ability.
B) The nerd stereotype is in many ways a secularized version of the Jew stereotype. Intelligent, crafty, but also sickly and neurotic and marginalized. Jews self-inserted their national stereotypes into movies about non-Jews, which informed popular culture
Is that correlation found within men? And if so what is the correlation?
I cant remember what I wrote and Im not gonna read it again, but im quite sure there is an inverse correlation between IQ and facial width + testosterone + athleticism. Do you actually believe that nerds would be better than others at sports if they just applied themselves? No way in hell. Also, autism is NOT a nerdy phenotype, its actually the opposite they have more testosterone, just read my latest autism checklist.
I'm sure if the correlation was only found in women, the studies would mention it. And I don't see any reason to assume why these trends would exist only in men. Your whole argument is that nerds devote more nutrients to brain power and less to body power. Also, Autism being a "testosterone overload" doesn't mean it isn't nerdy. Obviously when people think of nerds they think of people with rather autistic personalities. The fact that Autists are high-T just further demonstrates the lack of power behind the nerd-jock archetypes.
Are you fucking retarded? The correlation might exist across genders but not within them. Jesus Christ. Also, autism is a solitary forager strategy, meaning you need to be able to hunt alone, meaning you need to be really fucking good at hunting, so not a nerd. Holy shit.
I don’t know man, I think calling someone a retard after admitting you don’t even remember what you wrote in your own article and don’t feel like rereading it is a little bit ironic. Again, there is absolutely no reason to assume that this correlation is gender-specific, and your hypothesis for the etiology of nerds would suggest it is not gender specific. You have to provide, yknow, proof for your claims?
Autism isn’t an evolutionary strategy, it’s a deleterious personality disorder. For autism to be an evolutionary strategy there would have to be some race of people who adopted this antisocial way of life for thousands of years and bred with each other, but autists arise by chance in prosocial environments.
its always a pleasure to read a new article from you!
Thank you mate, sorry it took a while.
no problem, take your time and dont rush unfinished ones out of the door
Hey Windsor, I've just skim read your post, and I can already tell you've got some new insights for me! Looking forward to a slower read to digest all your points on intelligence and masculinity.
Hey mate, yeah its a bit of a longer one, and I re edited it several times so that's why it took a while. Want to really start cranking some out now.
There are cultural elements in this. In the US, jocks don't geek because they specialize, focus on winning in one thing. In Germany, there is a lingering element of idealistic-humanistic philosophy that life of the mind, spirit Geist, is superior to the life of the body. That's Hegel. Everything is the Idea unfolding.
British culture is almost unique in that, that they realized intellectuals need sports. Boys boxed, Kate Middleton played hockey (very not princessly!), and Tolkien was a "fierce" rugby player. Yes, Tolkien. Totally would not expect that.
But not sure how much is left of this.
Personal experience:
1) be a weak, timid, low testosterone boy
2) get bullied
3) as a reaction, try not to leave the home
4) there is not much to do at home, but parents have books, there are interesting stuff on the internet, one might become an intellectual. but one might also become an avid World of Warcraft player, and while that might be called "nerdy" it is not actually intellectual. we don't know whether the nerdy guy on the pic is a physics expert or just really likes videogames.
I have a totally unfounded schizo hypothesis that differences in intelligence is partially caused by differences in connective tissue. More “nerdy” connective tissue promotes neuroplasticity and more “jock” connective tissue promotes athleticism.
Would maybe explain higher rates of myopia, lankiness, differences in physical coordination, and even facial shape.
We know that people with hypermobility are more likely to have higher levels of anxiety and depression, so it’s not totally outrageous to think that there is some connection between connective tissue and brain development.
However, I know jack shit about any of this. Just a funny thought.
You mean ehlers danlos syndrome? Thats more common in women and autism, explaining the anxiety and depression. But I suppose there might be a correlation with IQ and EDS too. Regardless, I think there has to be a negative correlation between athleticism and intelligence because they are both metabolically costly. You can be good at one or the other or average at both. Only neurodivergent people are good at both.
No, I just meant garden variety hypermobility. hEDS has a much stricter diagnostic criteria.
But I do recall reading some studies that found correlations between hypermobility and anxiety, depression, etc.
So my thought was that some other connective tissue mutations might be correlated with IQ, but not necessarily cause hypermobility. Rather, the hypermobility -> anxiety correlation just demonstrates that phenotype traits related to physical appearance and athleticism can have cognitive correlatives. So maybe some other connective tissue genes could cause both “nerdy” phenotype and high IQ.
The metabolic cost explanation is much more parsimonious, I think. Also, a pretty simple explanation for the inverse correlation between BMI and IQ — low adolescent BMI is correlated with higher adult IQs.
I wasnt aware of the BMI-IQ correlation. I agree its more parsimonious but absolutely there could be correlations with other physical traits. It could even just be added to the theory.
Hypermobility might reduce power, which reduces both athleticism and energy requirements. Or rather, power reduces mobility.
So yes I guess youre right there should be a correlation, but its also possible to be mobile and athletic/powerful.
I’m a little confused. You say the study suggests the correlation between perceived intelligence and facial width does not translate to a correlation between actual intelligence and facial width. Are you sure more gracile men aren’t just less likely to overestimate their intelligence?
There are many things which suggest that the nerd-jock dichotomy isn’t real and never has been. https://www.sebjenseb.net/p/whats-in-a-nerd
Intelligence is correlated slightly with various un-nerdy qualities. Good looks, prosocial behavior, broad build, height, disease resistance, and facial attractiveness. This correlation doesn’t seem to fall off at high levels either. I have heard before that facial width actually correlated with intelligence in both genders in youth. Not sure if that’s true, but it does correlate with autism (which most would view as a “nerdy” personality).
The nerd/jock stereotype probably comes from these two sources:
A) People who are not intellectually motivated are more likely to pursue a sport, but are not necessarily more genetically gifted at said sport. Playing sports makes it more difficult to pursue academic excellence, even if it doesn’t correlate with a lack of cognitive ability.
B) The nerd stereotype is in many ways a secularized version of the Jew stereotype. Intelligent, crafty, but also sickly and neurotic and marginalized. Jews self-inserted their national stereotypes into movies about non-Jews, which informed popular culture
Is that correlation found within men? And if so what is the correlation?
I cant remember what I wrote and Im not gonna read it again, but im quite sure there is an inverse correlation between IQ and facial width + testosterone + athleticism. Do you actually believe that nerds would be better than others at sports if they just applied themselves? No way in hell. Also, autism is NOT a nerdy phenotype, its actually the opposite they have more testosterone, just read my latest autism checklist.
I'm sure if the correlation was only found in women, the studies would mention it. And I don't see any reason to assume why these trends would exist only in men. Your whole argument is that nerds devote more nutrients to brain power and less to body power. Also, Autism being a "testosterone overload" doesn't mean it isn't nerdy. Obviously when people think of nerds they think of people with rather autistic personalities. The fact that Autists are high-T just further demonstrates the lack of power behind the nerd-jock archetypes.
Are you fucking retarded? The correlation might exist across genders but not within them. Jesus Christ. Also, autism is a solitary forager strategy, meaning you need to be able to hunt alone, meaning you need to be really fucking good at hunting, so not a nerd. Holy shit.
I don’t know man, I think calling someone a retard after admitting you don’t even remember what you wrote in your own article and don’t feel like rereading it is a little bit ironic. Again, there is absolutely no reason to assume that this correlation is gender-specific, and your hypothesis for the etiology of nerds would suggest it is not gender specific. You have to provide, yknow, proof for your claims?
Autism isn’t an evolutionary strategy, it’s a deleterious personality disorder. For autism to be an evolutionary strategy there would have to be some race of people who adopted this antisocial way of life for thousands of years and bred with each other, but autists arise by chance in prosocial environments.
what is your iq?
I’ve never taken a proper IQ test, but my standardized test scores through the years would indicate something around the mid-120s
A negative correlation between IQ and athleticism IN MEN sorry.
Very interesting. A small clarification on Fischer’s origin: he was only half Jewish.